Nov 25, 2019
- Julie McCorkle
I didn't allow myself to be as vulnerable as I probably wouldtoday because there are a lot of great people out there that dotruly care even if they don't understand or don't know what youneed. I think I would have voiced that a lot sooner.
INTRO
Today, I welcome Julie McCorkle. Julie is the head of HRat PERQ, a tech firm here in town. She shares about thedifficult, embodied journey of infertility, and three years of IVFtreatments, and how she and Chis welcomed Declan into theworld.
This episode is sponsored by Fullstack PEO, where you can getPayroll, Benefits, and Peace of Mind. We are also sponsoredby Handle with Care, HR Consulting, empowering your company torespond well when it matters most.
Julie, her husband, and their one-year old son, Declan, recentlymoved to Indiana from the Washington, DC area. They love tohike and explore the outdoors…as well as wineries.
- Julie McCorkle
We were in Northern Virginia and going like a little farthersouth and a little farther east it was just beautiful. I mean, themountains, the Blue Ridge Mountains are incredible, great winerieswhich we probably went to a little too often. And you know greatmountain top wineries. So as a little anxious moving to Indianajust the mountains are left right.
- Julie McCorkle
Yeah right. Like as flat and cornfields. But I have beenpleasantly surprised that there's a lot of beautiful area here.
Julie came to Indiana to be the head of HR at Perq. Juliehas been in HR for a long time, she likes to say that she stumbledinto it. A summer stint with Huntington Bank in Ohio was herfirst foray into the world of HR.
- Julie McCorkle
They told me I'd be working in H.R. and I literally googled whatH.R. stood for. No idea my parents are small business owners I hadno concept. And I just stuck with it.
- Julie McCorkle
I mean I kind of started out in the benefits field and startedmoving more on the H.R. management side doing a lot of employeerelations and just kind of expanding my wings and just kind offound my path so in time anybody asked me about H.R. and I wouldjust say I'm like a glorified problem solver.
Julie brings both a commitment to problem solving as well as adeep care for people to her work in HR; it is one of the reasonsthat she is on the Handle with Care podcast today: her ownexperience with loss has deepened the role that she sees HR playingwithin organizations.
- Julie McCorkle
One of the things when I started opening up about fertility theamount of other people that were experiencing as well. I was blownaway by and I don't think until you start having the conversationsthat you recognize how many people have suffered like a child losswhether it's a miscarriage whether they're not able to get pregnantwhatever it is. I mean every person that I would talk to hadsomebody in their life that has experienced something similar rightor were experiencing something similar. And I think just there's,there's work that's being done, a lot of the work that you arebeing done in the workplace itself so many people put on masks anddifferent personas to survive to get through the day and don'tnecessarily recognize the impact that it is having on them or thosearound them like with work and aren't willing to have theconversations or are in a spot where they can't have theconversations and if they can't have the conversation then shame onthat workplace.
- Julie McCorkle
Yeah right. Then it's time to move you're probably way toovaluable for them anyways. So for my fellow colleagues like H.R.professionals we are the we're in the profession where it's ourresponsibility to navigate that for people. There's there's reallystrong structures that have been built within corporations over heryears. Right. That's hard for people to understand and recognizeand navigate and that's what our our responsibility is. And you'regood. H.R. professionals they're gonna do that for you. So if youare experiencing it if you do need support talk to them.
Julie is an HR person that you would want to talk to, becauseshe has gone through her own story of loss. And to understandthat story, let’s back up a little to her husband, Chris.Julie had finished school. Although Chris was older, he haddone a stint in the army and was in his junior year. Theywere set up in a bar.
- Julie McCorkle
He bought me a beer. I was about it and when we starteddating it just just went very quickly very very quickly. Yeah Imean we were, I think we were dating for probably about six toeight months when he accepted a job in D.C. and we had a whole yearbefore we moved.
- Julie McCorkle
But Chris technically never asked me to move with him. He toldme he accepted the job was like Oh OK great, I'm going with you.So, I didn't have a choice.
- Liesel Mertes
You declared your travel plans.
- Julie McCorkle
He said That's right. Well great. Charlie ready for the nextadventure. All right good. We're going now.
- Liesel Mertes
You and Chris have added Declan to your family and I know thatthat is one of the things that you're here to talk about becausethat wasn't as straightforward as you would have liked. Tell us alittle bit more about how long you and Chris had been together andwhen you decided that you wanted to start a family.
- Julie McCorkle
Yes. So our, I think everything in our life, Chris was far morerelaxed than I am. And I definitely have I don't I mean theredefinite not stringent plans but I normally have my five year planand we were both finishing up our masters and I always knew that atthe point of finishing up our masters that that was at the pointthat I wanted to start a family. So, we had kind of had the time inline and you know we had been together.
- Julie McCorkle
So, the infertility journey was about three years. So we hadbeen married for five had been together for about seven and halfyears and I think we were both very much ready.
- Julie McCorkle
And honestly, I just kind of expected it would be easy. Itsounds terrible not that everything in our life has been easy. Butyou work so hard your whole life to not have kids and at the pointwhen you want to have kids and start a family you just kind ofexpected to happen. Yeah I mean I definitely did it.
Julie and Chris start trying…a few months go by and Julie goesto the doctor.She gets some tips, and then there is testing,and then talking to a fertility specialist. By now, sixmonths have gone by. But Julie is a problem solver, which iswhat led her to the door of Dr. Leilani.
- Julie McCorkle
She was she was very open and very honest in her communicationjust setting expectations from the beginning just from the initialjust meet and greet and deciding if we wanted to go there andunderstanding all our options and what the process for testing andyou know kind of, just all the cost and everything that goes intoit and the time commitment and you hear everything you're likeOK.
- Julie McCorkle
Yeah we can do this. I mean this is gonna be a significantcommitment but we can do this. This is fine. And then as you gothrough the process you're like Do we really want to keep doingthis? Do we really want to keep doing this? There's a lot more thanyou really expect. Right. It's hard to actually process all thatuntil I think you're in the middle of it.
- Liesel Mertes
When I hear that is that perhaps there's initial decision to godown this path. But then there's lots of other decision pointsalong the way. Do we want to continue doing want to keep doingthat? Does that feel accurate to you?
- Julie McCorkle
Yeah absolutely.
- Julie McCorkle
And I think I don't know how similar other couples haveexperienced it but you know based on other conversations I've hadit's probably pretty much the same. It's very incremental. Soreally, just understanding what the problem is in the first placeand whether there's anything that can be done with it is of coursethe first step. So there's this whole slew of testing that needs tobe done. And then there's there's like increments of certaintreatments that can be done to see if they work and then it's kindof like just to wait and see.
- Julie McCorkle
So we had decided to do like two eyes right before goingdown the full IVF path and neither one of those work and that's afive thousand dollar investment and that's about a six month timeframe like, Well that was like a total waste of time. Right. Totalwaste of time, total waste of money but otherwise that'ssignificantly less expensive and less invasive than IVF. So, if wehave done that I'm not sure we would have gotten to the same point.Right so there's a lot of back and forth like did I just waste sixmonths of our time?
MUSICAL TRANSITION
- Julie McCorkle
The IVF investment for us was thirty thousand dollars. Yeah. Andthere are ways like and I had a very honest discussion about itlike this is gonna be a significant investment. This is what wehave to do in our family and our household to make it happen. Arewe willing to do that. And the question for both of us is yesabsolutely right. There's no reason why we want to do it.
- Julie McCorkle
We can make it happen. So we're going to. And I think there's alot of coupling that couples that don't have that and I was alsovery fortunate to have a lot of support and just the time right tobe able to go until late late to work every single day. So I haveto stop for lab tests every single morning for a blood draw a lotof the way to start with the emotional social.
- Julie McCorkle
You get to know the nurses really well so least you've got greatrelationships. The traffic wasn't bad. No I was in a great, greatfertility clinic. The traffic was terrible. Nice to see you this.It's always it's always vogue but there's a lot of people that donot have the ability to change their life for what they're goingthrough.
- Liesel Mertes
Yeah well yeah I hear I hear in that. I mean that is aninteresting consideration in the landscape of it not it not thatit's like a privilege to walk through something that hard but it'snot an option for you know some people that are like it's ahardship but it's not even an available hardship for some peoplewho are like No. Like we don't have the financial resources to giveto that right.
- Liesel Mertes
I'm struck that a journey with infertility is a very physicaljourney for a woman and lots of like logistics and scheduling.Would you tell us a little bit more about for someone who's notwalked through that journey and give us like more of a sense of thephysicality? Yeah what it is to go through fertility treatment?
- Julie McCorkle
Yeah you're actually right. So I think the physical ness wasatrocious really atrocious. There's there's a significant amount oftime commitment with scheduling; I mean I was in the fertilityclinic every other morning just for bloodwork so just constantlymaking sure that you're eating the right thing staying away fromalcohol which, I love my wine, constantly hydrated right just inorder to get a good blood draw is something that it's it's alwayson your mind it's and it always has to be I think just in order togo through it. So the time commitment of itself is an impact onwork, it's an impact on your personal life because it just takesover.
- Julie McCorkle
But the physical ness that you go through just from themedicines and just the side effects from, you know at one pointwhen before they do the retrieval like an egg retrieval you're on asignificant amount of fertility meds and my doctor described to meof like having a bushel of grapes sitting outside of your ovaries.So you just feel huge and gross and you can't move and you can'tbutton your pants almost like being pregnant but you don't get thethe great resource for it.
- Julie McCorkle
So in general I mean when I responded my body like I was about30 pounds heavier. I was exhausted like absolute exhausted all thetime and I just felt. GROSS definitely didn't feel like myself andwhen I actually got pregnant the first time in three years that Ifelt healthy again I felt normal felt more like myself and I lovedbeing pregnant because of that there's a lot of people I thinkabsolutely have terrible pregnancies. But for me my body hadalready processed a lot of the and just the changes in thehormones. So it's the breeze was great.
- Liesel Mertes
It's a long time to be feeling not outside of your body but illat ease. Yeah your body just and all of that emotional stress.
Oh yes with that.
- Liesel Mertes
Tell us a little bit more about the emotions that accompany thatphysical journey. What would someone who has not gone through thatwhat would they not understand that would be important for them toknow?
- Julie McCorkle
So I think the journey and of itself like everything that you gothrough with the testing and just working through the process offertility whatever treatments you decide that in and of itself isall consuming right: the time, the physical, the money, thefinancial commitment. Mentally, it was all consuming for me. Sothere was probably not a moment of any day that I didn't thinkabout it. It was consuming of my dreams every single night when Iwould sleep I would have some sort of dream about our fertilityjourney and it's all I thought about.
- Julie McCorkle
It's all I thought about and it's you know for me. Imentioned how stubborn I am of like you know I'm not reallysomebody where you tell me I can't do something and then think thatI actually can't do it. So, just starting to recognize thepossibility that I'd never be able to have kids was very that wasthe most emotional part because I never had kids so I didn'tnecessarily knew what I was missing out on. Now I have Declan, Icannot ever imagine life without him. Right. But we were at thatphase yet so
- Julie McCorkle
I think it's just the possibility of not having that andnot living up to what I thought my life would be. It was hard toprocess.
MUSICAL TRANSITION
- Liesel Mertes
What were ways that people in your wider community reallysupported you?
- Julie McCorkle
Well yeah. So, I think my work team was actually by far the mostsupportive that I ever experienced. I mean they were incredible. Iremember going to my boss really at the point that we started doingsome of the testing because I was out significantly and I didn'twant him to think that I was leaving right. I didn't want him tothink I was randomly scheduling all these appointments and that Iwas interviewing. So I sat down his office and like, I just wantyou to be aware I don't know what the time commitment is but we'rehaving some fertility issues.
- Julie McCorkle
And I just lost it. I just started sobbing and he got upand gave me a big hug and he's like, I don't, whatever you need,whatever you need. Don't stress about it and that. And I was veryclose with my former supervisor always he's a dear friend of mine.So I knew, when he said, like whatever you need, he actually meantit.
- Julie McCorkle
And I leaned on him a lot. I mean throughout. It was about athree year journey. So throughout that time frame just mentally andphysically not being at work. I mean there's a lot that he took onto do that but it wasn't just my boss.
- Julie McCorkle
but the larger team that I worked with. I had two employees thatreported directly to me at the time that I wasn't necessarily therecouldn't be there were frankly if I didn't have the mental capacityto deal with something they did. So that team in of itself wasincredibly supportive and it's just a question.
- Liesel Mertes
When you say that. So those moments in real time because thisand they hear like not having the mental capacity to deal with theproblem. Yeah. Did you have the self-awareness act like thosemoments to be able to say, I'm like I'm kind of overwhelmed rightnow? I need you to take this. Did they sense that? How did thatcommunication go?
- Julie McCorkle
No I definitely didn't. OK. And that's one of things that I,after the fact, like after Declan was here and I kind of look backand reflect on that time frame. I like to think that I handled itpretty well. But I'm sure I didn't handle it nearly to the pointlike to the extent that I thought I did. And I knew that I wasstressed and overwhelmed. But I'm one of those individuals where Ijust take it day by day. Right.
- Julie McCorkle
So if there's too many things on my plate I'm I don't like topass off work. I don't like to say that I can't handle this. I justtake it day by day. So I didn't recognize it until after the factand until really until Declan was successful like successfullyconceived. I guess I didn't realize how much the stress wasimpacting the fertility and kind of our issues and the lastimplantation they did. That was when my boss Ken mentioned to me,he's like, you need to get out of here like I do. And I told him Iwas like Yep I agree. Let's get out of DC.
- Julie McCorkle
I'm just gonna work from home. He's like, No I meanthere's certain things I know you're going to do because you'restubborn you're still gonna do it but I don't want you to focus ona thing. So the team recognized it more what I needed than what Idid right. And they were very good at kind of calling intoattention of like I'm just gonna take this off your plate justgonna take it and handle it and I'll let you know how it goes. Andyou were able to release that to the eggs. I trust themimmensely.
- Liesel Mertes
That's what I hear in that the importance of an underlying trustthat's established in those moments where you can actually believelike oh they're not seeing me as incompetent. They're trying tocare for me. I mean, there's a lot of underlying elements ofculture that have to be in place for that to be possible. Yeah.Yeah for them to say let me take it. And for you to say OK.Absolutely do that.
- Julie McCorkle
Absolutely. And there was. You know, before I even started onthe lab journey I had a great working relationship with my boss. Ihad a great working relationships with my team anyways, and we'vealways had really open honest communication. So it's a no brainerfor me to just talk through it right and just talk about it andthey knew my own little personal working style my own quirks andneeds. So when they saw me get stressed or saw that I was runningaround a little frantic and probably not operating at my fullcapacity, that's when they stepped in and just did it.
- Liesel Mertes
Did they have any other particular awareness is orconsiderations for you within the years of that journey? I knowthat we had talked about things like baby showers in the officeplace. How did you feel like that transpired in your workplace andhow you felt in the midst of those dynamics or how other peoplewere caring for you?
- Julie McCorkle
Yes, I think the individual team around me was incrediblycognizant of those needs and you know, when I was going through thefertility journey you see others that get pregnant and you'rereally excited for them but frankly you're mad at them at the sametime right. And there's there are individuals and then I wassurrounded with both my personal and professional life that we'llget pregnant immediately and I became very sensitive over listeningtrying I don't even know if I want this child I'm like I just wantto smack you excuse my violence I you know and my teamunderstanding what I was going through was very cognizant of thoseconversations and would just just kind of pull me away or you knowimmediately change the subject whatever it may be. Just recognizingit before I would even recognize it.
- Julie McCorkle
And there are a lot you know there's a lot that happens in theworkplace. I've mentioned to the colleague of mine she's struggledwith infertility for 10 years and I'm not sure if her and herhusband will be able to have children they still struggle with it.And she was at a place where she had just tried every avenuepossible. There's really nothing else for them to try. Possiblyexcept you know surrogacy and that was kind of the next steps. Butthere is a baby shower in the workplace and she had just sufferedfrom a miscarriage.
- Julie McCorkle
I don't think anybody recognized why she was out but shewas out on the day there was a baby shower. There's all sorts ofbaby things in her office they're just using her office to kind oforganize and store things before the mom could put him in a car andshe just shut down right.
- Julie McCorkle
So I knew her journey not many people did but I knew of herjourney and I grabbed her that day when she she called me up andwas extremely emotional in telling about it, like OK you need to gohome. I'll tell your boss why you're home just just leave right,like this is what you need in this moment. And I think it's reallyimportant to have individuals in your life, regardless of whatcircumstances either personal or professional, that know andunderstand and can, you can recognize that that maybe pushes youfor something that you need that otherwise you may not do yourselfto be able to acknowledge that and give voice to it and giveyourself permission to take that space.
- Liesel Mertes
What were some of the worst ways that your community likeintersected with you or the things that you look back on and youthink that was just so dumb or that was so painful?
- Julie McCorkle
Yeah. I think the worst honestly was my mom. It sounds terrible;I've got an interesting relationship with my mom anyway and Icertainly recognize the things that she's not great at and I knowwhy she is the person that she is and I recognize and I respectthat. But, it's very different than me. And we process things in avery different manner. My mom's deeply religious. So everything toher goes back to the Catholic Church the Catholic religion and herbeliefs and I'm honestly not so there's comments that she made tome all the time that just really dug into me and a lot of times Ijust kind of chalked up to, Well that's Mom being Mom right. I hada couple of times like for example she made a comment when I wasgoing through the first surgery was home for a little going awayparty for my sister and she made the comment about essentiallymaking sure that I'm going to church or leaks at the time they dobecome they're pregnant. The devil was gonna steal the soul of mybaby and I just looked around and I just walked away right. And Imentioned it to my husband who completely blew up and he and I'msure mom heard him blow up because we were having conversationslike I can't understand why she'd make a commentary like thatknowing everything you're going through right now and when he saidthat Mike you're asleep right.
- Julie McCorkle
You're absolutely right. Why would she make a comment likethat? Why would she not be supportive? And just, the individualthat's in my life the most that should recognize what I need rightnow.
- Julie McCorkle
I don't need you to say anything sometimes I just need you tolisten. She wasn't able to do that but she's not who she is. So,there are points and there's a lot of my siblings I'm very closewith. There are points that I think they have the same moments likegiving advice and you just need to pray more you need to go tochurch.
- Julie McCorkle
Yes sir I don't think so. You. Where that was that shut medown. And you know after mom made that comment I didn't talk to herfor six months and it got to the point when I actually got pregnantI'm like, well you know I actually want a relationship with my mombecause I want my son to have a relationship with his grandparentsright where I just kind of got over it. But I have now goingthrough that journey recognize the people in my life that I knowthat I can't live on.
- Julie McCorkle
There are people in my life that regardless of what I gothrough I will be able to lean on and they will always be there andrecognize what I need. And there are others that just won't. Andthat's OK.
- Liesel Mertes
It's interesting as we age how we how we feel like on a deeplevel those things that you just feel like you know like if you'renot safe or these are people I can depend on as you think aboutthose people and you say yeah you're someone that I can depend on.Are there are there characteristics that are common across themwhere you say yeah they're marked by this?
- Julie McCorkle
Yeah, I think just the capacity to listen and not just listeningto let somebody talk but listening to actually understand whatthey're saying. And this is so much of what I do in my work in H.R.where people will come to you and they'll bring some sort of issueto mind. And normally, what they're saying is not what they needit's not what the issue is you have to understand the underlyingthere's definitely people I found in my life that can look belowthe surface to really truly understand and just just care. Andthose individuals are the ones that I think you can lean upon.
- Liesel Mertes
I love that that carryover from what your personal journey hasbeen into your professional life because, a lot of times you knowthat such a divide there's work and then there's your life. I thinkthat's binary in a way that is false. Yeah, but expound on that alittle bit more because of what you have experienced. What do youbring differently to your role in H.R.? You say you have the Juliein 2019 has grown beyond the Julie of 2010 in these ways whetherthat's dealing with infertility specifically or just with anyonewho might walk in your door having gone through a disruptive lifeevent.
- Julie McCorkle
Yeah absolutely. So I think I think they're great. H.R.professionals out there some that can really understand the balancebetween supporting and advocating for employees and still lookingout for the best interests of the company and there's others thatkind of skew one way right through there too far in the companywhere most the time they don't have the trust of their staff or onthe other side like two supportive of staff where they can'tactually support the interests of the company. That balance I thinkI've always done pretty well navigating it and maintaining ahealthy balance.
- Julie McCorkle
But I don't think I without going through this journey. Idon't think I truly had an understanding of the impact a disruptivelife event can have on somebody. I mean I've always think I've beenable to listen to them to understand to get to the root of theissue and do my best to help them and especially just navigatingmanagement structure right to help them whether it's additionaltime off or just telling their supervisor they need to be outbecause their supervisor is not going to react well and they don'tneed that reaction.
- Julie McCorkle
But truly understanding what that does to somebody goingthrough this journey I've never had that understanding and it'shard to I'm not sure if I ever would if I haven't experienced itmyself because it's really hard to understand what somebody isexperiencing.
- Julie McCorkle
You can listen to them you can have empathy you can care but youhave to you have to almost put it in your own context in your ownexperiences to be able to feel it right here that
- Liesel Mertes
Do you have any words of insight to someone who is listening andright now they're in the midst of their infertility journey? Oranother way of raising it. Any words that you would give to ayounger version of yourself. From what you know now?
- Julie McCorkle
A younger version of myself, I think I definitely would haveopened up quicker than what I did. I mean, I think I had greatconversations great support from the individuals around me
- Julie McCorkle
I didn't allow myself to be as vulnerable as I probably wouldtoday because there are a lot of great people out there that dotruly care even if they don't understand or don't know what youneed. I think I would have voiced that a lot sooner. Yeah and Ithink I would have allowed myself to recognize I need to be awayfrom this.
- Julie McCorkle
I need to be away from work. I need to be away from D.C..I just need to be in an area that is stress free where I just keepmy mind off of the journey itself. What I'm going through and allowmyself to voice that I definitely never allowed myself to voicethat. And in hindsight I wish I would have. I'm just very fortunateI had people in my life that voiced it for me. And I thinkrecognizing if you do or if you don't have those people allowingyourself to to utilize the help that somebody is willing tolend.
- Liesel Mertes
Mm hmm. And for anyone who's listening that says Oh yeah I havesomeone in my life who is in the middle of this when I have anemployee who, this is part of their story, where do you give tosomeone who finds themselves in those support roles?
- Julie McCorkle
I would say to reach out to if you have somebody in your lifeand you've already developed that relationship where you can startthe conversation just starting the conversation of itself is agreat place to start. And just reach out to ask them what theyneed. Just let them talk. And then once they talk truly listen towhat they're not necessarily saying. And those are the ways inwhich you can find to make a difference for that person.
MUSICAL TRANSITION
I want to close with a thanks to our podcast sponsor, FullStackPEO. The good people at FullStack focus on your people so youcan scale your business faster.
And we end, as always, with three take-aways…
- Julie spoke about how important it was to have individuals inher life that pushed her to “take her space”, to acknowledge thepain and stress of this season. Like the boss that encouraged herto take time away from DC. Julie became that person when sheencouraged her coworker to go home after the baby showerdebacle. When people are going through stress, they areoftentimes consumed with the needs of the moment. Perhaps youcan be that friend or manager that encourages a friend dealing withinfertility to take some necessary space and time; it can mean alot.
- Julie was able to be open about her treatments and receive thehelp and advice of her managers and coworkers because there was arobust culture of trust and respect that was already present in herworkplace. Is this the sort of truly supportive workplace that youare a part of? If not, what are some proactive steps that youcan take to build trust BEFORE hard times come?
- IVF and infertility treatments can be tremendously taxing onboth a physical and emotional level. As you can, give flexibilityand understanding to the women in your organization going throughIVF. They are managing tremendous stress in their bodies aswell as their schedules in addition to doing their daily work forthe organization.
OUTRO
